New KSCC "wire"

Re: New KSCC "wire"

Postby Rabbit Farmer » Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:16 am

Ahhh, the magic and art of the third hand for photography. :D
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Re: New KSCC "wire"

Postby Kent Everding » Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:43 pm

sdwarf36 wrote: Taking reservations now. 8-)

You know us 2 upstate NY guys love runnin wire at Burke :D
Count me in for Okemo too! Picking up wire at Philo was fun, lol,
and I'm still not quite sure where the hell Ascutney is so we'll see haha
This new gear looks sweet Walter, Thank you .
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Re: New KSCC "wire"

Postby walterclark » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:57 am

To continue the discussion I began on Facebook about reducing/preventing these:

Image

I believe most occur when laying the wire and occur because without any tension on the wire, the steel core tends to curl up as it was when stored for many years. In the past and today we use a fair sized loop of wire between the spool and the sheaves that route it into the roadside/ditch. The loop acts as a protection mechanism since the speed of the truck, rate at which the wire is payed out and rate at which it lays onto the roadside have short term variances that otherwise would pull the wire and either put it back onto the road or try to stretch it.

I think what we need is a way to keep enough tension in the "loop" to prevent the wire from trying to curl up but not so much so as to pull it back onto the road or try to stretch it before the vehicle laying it can slow/stop or the speed of the spool is adjusted as appropriate. I put "loop" in quotes because what is needed is a buffer. A loop is how we create that buffer right now and in addition to refining the loop there may be a better way entirely.

What suggestions do people have?
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Re: New KSCC "wire"

Postby Super1303 » Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:33 pm

I've been re-thinking about it as what's the simplest solution that would use what's already made and not need a 10 page instruction manual..

Running the wire at Burke, usually with Bill, Kent and Sherman this topic comes up. So the ideas I'm posting are a collective or collection of ideas discussed on the truck in the moment.
I usually take the position as the guy frantically trying too keep tension on the wire as it comes off the spool. Sherman, with a taunting laugh, keeps spinning the spool faster an faster an faster, sipping on his Pepsi while I'm dying of thirst, feeding it out off the truck. Go too slow and let the spool over run you; it's just gets all messed up.
If you try to let it unwind unassisted it fly's all over the place. The wire dose have a wicked memory.

So the two problems noticed, every time, are.
1- the wire coming off the spool has more of a memory, then the copper wire, and there's not enough tension in the wire, now, to counter act the memory/spring and pull it off the spool smoothly. (Just think fishing line.)

2- the wire feeding into the first sheave on the thingumabob(whatever you call that arm to place the wire off the road) suffers from the same thing.
It's getting pulled through alright but it gets there all wonky, due to lack of tension, coming off the loop in the road and will jump off, catching, getting yanked, this an that, before the truck stops, yada yada.. Knots/Kinks.

Could it be as simple as.
1-running the wire through a sheave like a modified bike rim attached to a board dragging on the road to introduce more tension in the wire. I don't think it would take much.
Make it so you can add or remove weight for different hills if needed, fine tune it. I'm sure each is hill is different. I've only done Burke.

2-adding a tubular guide, 2"PVC with a slot cut in the top for example, from the first to the second sheave on the thingumabob to keep it stable, from bouncing around when a drop comes by.

3-add some sort of smooth acting adjustable/controllable drag to the spool to complete the concept.

That's the idea. Thoughts?
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Re: New KSCC "wire"

Postby sdwarf36 » Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:33 pm

If we had the old wire with the new reel+ magic stick, we could have the wire up in a 1/2 hour. ;) The wire doesn't drag on the road the same. Its too light -the coating is slicker-and the memory from the steel wire keeps it curling. We have discussed a chain dragging on the road (thru a pulley i guess) to a rc car. But with more tension to get it off the reel, it might just want to pull it the other way-making the wire already laid start to get pulled back into the road. Something to think about when coming up with ideas.
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Re: New KSCC "wire"

Postby 3rdgendennis » Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:47 am

Not sure how to make it happen just yet, but a mechanical tensioner like on a timing belt comes to mind... Some sort of arm with a light spring on it to keep tension. The margin for error in speed difference between the truck and the wire feeding would be smaller than with a big loop, but the arm would also be an indicator of whether to spin the wheel faster or slower
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Re: New KSCC "wire"

Postby walterclark » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:16 am

A question for the team that first put the wire down at Okemo.

Were the original wires (3 of them) spooled off a spinning spool onto the road or at times was the wire fed off the end of a stationary spool?

I ask because the parts of the "wire" where there a lot of kinks are also the parts where the wire is twisted a lot. I am referring to the molded wire that makes up the part from Start to Check 7 at Okemo, not the part above 7 that becomes a twisted pair. I found a lot of kinks from Start to about Check 2 where the wire has a lot of twists then long sections that are nearly twist free and they have no kinks. If the wire was run off the original spool by pulling it from a turning spool, it would be pretty twist free. If pulled off one end of a fixed spool it would have a twist for every loop around the original spool. Otherwise I dont see how the wire became twisted like it is.

If there is a correlation between the existing twists and kinks, maybe there is a way for me to "untwist" it. Probably a lot of work so I dont want to start it without a good chance that it will improve how the wire handles.
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Re: New KSCC "wire"

Postby sdwarf36 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:47 pm

The first two of the 3 small green reels went onto the new reel -they were propped up on 2 jackstands with a piece of tubing as an axle. Speed was limited by the diameter of the small reels. No kinks present- the line was always taught. At Okemo, they were laid down the normal way off the big reel. The last section was the 3rd small one done jackstand style. Same runout on the road + thru the pulleys as usual.
The first 50ft of the wire going down we are "pushing a rope". From off the reel (which sometimes slacks on unreeling) down the chute-onto the road going downhill-until the wire turns upill its mostly slack. And trying to retain the 3 ft diameter shape it just came from. At times, the downhill wire can be in "waves". Multiple 3 ft loops down to the turnaround point. I bet those loops tightening are the start of a kink.
Translating road racing to hillclimbing:
Proper tire selection== nothing hooks up on moss or wet leaves.
Staying on the racing line==anything paved is considered good.
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Re: New KSCC "wire"

Postby walterclark » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:57 pm

I sounds like it was put down with no significant twist so that must have crept in during use. Maybe the twists change direction here and there and are more the result of the memory of the wire wanting to roll itself up. In that case I would guess there is little point in me trying to "untwist" it.
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Re: New KSCC "wire"

Postby Kent Everding » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:28 am

I think you're correct Walter, its the nature of this wire to have memory that is causing the twists, like Sherm mentioned its a lot slicker than the old and its stiffer too. When we make the loop from the spool onto the road and back to the magic stick, the old wire stayed in a loop and had drag, felt like snow tires on a summer day. When we make the loop with new wire, after laying it down it wants to flop over once making a figure-eight and it has no drag, feels like slicks on ice. We're doing well with what we have but should contemplate everyone's ideas involving plumbing and carpentry supplies and used bike/engine parts :D
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