Starting light working group

W.Vaillancourt
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Re: Starting light working group

Post by W.Vaillancourt »

Thats really neat. I am pumped to see this actually in use at the hills. Good job guys!
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Rabbit Farmer
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Re: Starting light working group

Post by Rabbit Farmer »

My only concern is with the red coming on.... perhaps it should come on 3 seconds after the green. I would hesitate big time if I saw the red... been programmed that way thanks to the DMV. Yep, I jumped the start, but my thinking is that let me run up the hill thinking I'm good (like we do now). Three seconds up the hill.... (control) "oh, look, Steve jumped the start.... Control to Finish... add 10 seconds on to car 702 for jumping the start"

What about all lights on (or just green and red) to stage? Then yellow x3 and green?
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walterclark
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Re: Starting light working group

Post by walterclark »

We were done with the functional requirements and the light sequence was decided early on - last October. There was plenty of opportunity for discussion back then in this thread. We are also done with the design and testing of the hardware and firmware and unless the lights do not perform as we have indicated, the code and hardware will not be changed for now.

While it is possible to have all sorts of permutations of lights, Kevin and I - who, let me remind you, did all the work (plus Joey who is designing and building the stand) - decided to keep the lights functions and meaning simple. Both to reduce the chances for something not behaving as expected, and to reduce confusion for those using the system (workers and drivers). With the exception of staging, the fact that we mimicked (with what we have - a RYG traffic light) what is probably the the most familiar and widespread grassroots racing lighted start control - drag racing - was not accidental.

Perhaps, once we have used this system for a season and Kevin and I have demonstrated to ourselves it is solid as is and there is consensus for change, we will entertain making, adjustments, improvements or adding functionality. Keep in mind I wrote perhaps. This project taught me that while everyone seems very free with their opinions, concerns and critiques, getting actual help out of most is almost impossible. Even something as simple as drivers providing their eye height (the simple factual measurement as solicited, not including unsolicited comments about it not being needed, or opinions about where the light should be mounted) seems to be too much trouble for all but 6 people, 2 of whom were Kevin and I. So whatever is to be done it is most likely more work for Kevin and me.

As far as a driver seeing the red light when jumping start. Personally, I would prefer knowing so I can behave accordingly - which is to say I will not be flogging the car, I will use the rest of the run for practice since there is no way I am going to make up the time penalty I just generated, and I will know not do what I just did - again. By knowing immediately I think the chance that a driver will repeat because they do not know they are leaving early is greatly reduced. Remember there is presently no other system in place to notify drivers of an early start at any time during that or before their next run. This provides the notification within the physical constraints of our hardware.
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sdwarf36
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Re: Starting light working group

Post by sdwarf36 »

Walt-Kev-Joey--THANK YOU! for all the work on this project-I know its been said before--but still....

Steve-don't worry--you won't redlight-not saying anything about you manhood-or driving abilities-just none of our cars are set up to launch--and the starting line surface at everywhere but Okemo sucks. I don't remember how far out we are gonna set up the red light beam-but I am willing to bet that even the hardest leaving car (Alex or Joey I would guess) would be able to snap the clutch out on the 1st yellow + be safe. And the .5 second that you may or may not be able to gain/lose on the line is a small portion of a 130 second run.
And as many runs I made at the drags-I would still chop the gas if I saaw red--hoping it would "undo" itself--never happened! :lol:
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walterclark
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Re: Starting light working group

Post by walterclark »

Good point Sherm. When one drops the clutch and when one "leaves" the start line are not always the same time. In addition to ensuring there is no potential for operator variability in times, this will probably result in a lot of us gaining some time as we learn the delay from when we think we are starting to when we actually move forward.

There has been no decision in terms of where the photoswitch will be placed. How early relative to Go, or more to the practical point how far beyond the start line should be permitted before an early start is declared? When starters position a car at start is it based on the leading edge of a car or something else?

I am thinking we dont want it so close that it is hard for a starter to stage someone, or so far away that we can actually cross the start line a second early and still not trip it.

That probably needs to be experimented with some on the first Saturday at each hill to get it set in a fair place.
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Re: Starting light working group

Post by Rabbit Farmer »

No issues... just observations. I didn't get involved in the entire discussion becuase it got technical. Me and electronics are like oil and water. Looking forward to this for the next season.

Steve
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walterclark
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Re: Starting light working group

Post by walterclark »

Just an update.

I think the system worked pretty well this past year. The folks running the system found a few bugs throughout the season but overall I think it worked well.

Kevin made some running changes to both the light end of the system and to the software on the laptop at the top to address some odd behaviors and things we didnt expect to see.

The hardware side (my bit) got a change to the circuit that sends the tone up the wire to make it appear more consistent at the far end of the wire. We also saw some really bizarre start behavior at Mt Philo. I ran some tests and signal analysis of the system this winter, looking for anything electrical that could explain what we experienced at Philo. I found the starters switch ON-OFF signal to the micro-controller, which ideally should have been just a single voltage change to ON when pressed then OFF when released, instead looked something like the output of a seismometer during a major earthquake. Kevin has "debounce" software running in the controller but no software is going to be able to deal with what I saw. I was able to clean the switch contacts and restore proper operation but the fact remained that the switch itself is not sealed and despite adding a "condom", it was and will continue to get wet inside when used outdoors which is probably why it had degraded. So, I found a suitable heavy duty, hermetically sealed switch to replace the non-sealed switch in the end of the existing chrome tube holder thingy that the starters hold. Despite there being maybe a bazillion switches on Earth, I could find only one that looks like it would do (and fit the dimensions of the existing tholder) but strangely enough it screws into a M13x1.25 hole - the existing switch is a slightly smaller SAE size. Trust me, that tap is NOT in any tap and die "set" and even McMaster-Carr doesnt list one. Luckily, MSC does although it cost me $30 to get a Chinese made version here - which about $10 more than MSC gets for a common M12x1.25. I also added a couple components to the start button and electric eye input circuits of the controller to make them less sensitive to external electrical noise or as was the case here, poor switch contacts.
Last edited by walterclark on Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mopar 151
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Re: Starting light working group

Post by Mopar 151 »

That oughta be easy! So everybody says.. 'til they gotta make it work.....

Seriously - When I bought that old traffic light at swap n' sell, I had hopes, but I never dreamed that it would work so well! In particular, I did not expect the time savings for the starter and timing, which were a strong contributor to our awesome run production last summer - it even makes the corner workers job easier, and makes it easier for split-timers.

The other things that amazed me - our times changed very little compared to the manual system, and we really are that competitive with each other.
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KevinGale
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Re: Starting light working group

Post by KevinGale »

Mopar 151 wrote:our times changed very little compared to the manual system, and we really are that competitive with each other.
I think we are that competitive and it's also a good indication that the old semi manual system wasn't completely broken. I do feel a bit better now when a class is decided by a small fraction of a second.
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Re: Starting light working group

Post by jkale »

KevinGale wrote:
Mopar 151 wrote:our times changed very little compared to the manual system, and we really are that competitive with each other.
I think we are that competitive and it's also a good indication that the old semi manual system wasn't completely broken. I do feel a bit better now when a class is decided by a small fraction of a second.
me too... .11 seconds is too close to call for an entire season's worth of times on the "old" system...
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