Looking for a wideband

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sdwarf36
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Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:06 pm

Looking for a wideband

Post by sdwarf36 »

Can someone offer suggestions for a wideband set up? I'm not turbo-so meltdown isn't an issue-just trying to monitor my tune up.
Are they capable of reading after the run? I see some offering additional inputs-i figure TPs voltage would be good to see with the A/F. How long do O2 sensors last if the have (leaded) race fuel going thru them? (50/50 mix of VP 110+ 93 oct pump)
Translating road racing to hillclimbing:
Proper tire selection== nothing hooks up on moss or wet leaves.
Staying on the racing line==anything paved is considered good.
sciroccohp
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Location: New Haven, CT

Re: Looking for a wideband

Post by sciroccohp »

innovate sucks, really hard to install and have also heard bad things since I bought it. as far as the leaded fuel mine lasted 3 autocrosses but I am not sure that my friend who was codriving made sure that the preheat cycle was done everytime he started it. O2 sensors are not that expensive.
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walterclark
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Re: Looking for a wideband

Post by walterclark »

I have been using the Innovate LM-1 setup since maybe 2005. It is the fairly big box sticking out from my passenger side dash. It has data logging as well as a display of AFR and with the LMA-2 option it has RPM plus 4 analog inputs. The LM-1 has a digital serial output to drive an optional separate digital meter (XD16) or connect to a PC, plus 2 programmable analog outputs. I use its data logging and the analog outputs - one to simulate a NB for the ECU and the other to control AFR at WOT. The LM-1/LMA-2 is not water resistant so might not be too useful on your car. The LM-1 is no longer available from Innovate but you can still buy it on ebay (new and used) and from some automotive performance retailers that carry Innovate stuff.

I have been happy with my LM-1 but honestly cannot recommend its replacement the LM-2 or any other new generation Innovate product. Everyone (including Don T.) that I know of - who has had an LM-2 - seems to have had it not work properly on some non-wideband functions then have it fail completely. And worse, what used to be great support and customer service has gone to hell. Seems everything is your fault now, they know nothing about their products you cant learn by reading the manual, and the forum which used to have participation of their engineering folk has no-one but other users contributing (or bitching). Even their product web site is loaded with inconsistencies regarding what is still available. For example the XD16 is listed as no longer available on one page but it seems to be listed as an available kited option with the LC-1 on another.

A first gen product similar to the LM-1, the LC-1 (the LM-1 without the other inputs or data logging - it drives that XD16 digital meter or a PC and has the analog outputs) is still available from them. The LC-1 is water resistant, I am not sure about the XD16.

My recommendation is if you can find an LC-1 and XD16 (or a packaged kit with both) for a good price that would do well for you. Otherwise look elsewhere.

The Bosch LSU4.2 sensor Innovate uses is about $80 a pop and is the one used by most wideband analyzers. According to Klaus Almendinger (Engineering VP at Innovate back when they were a great company to deal with):

1. Leaded or otherwise metallized fuels or leaded race gas the sensor's lifespan is shortened. According to the Bosch specs on leaded fuels:

.6 grams lead/liter: 20,000 km
.4 grams lead/liter: 30,000 km
.15 grams lead/liter: 60,000 km
The older I get the better I was.
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walterclark
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Re: Looking for a wideband

Post by walterclark »

When I referred to the problems Innovate has with the LM-2, it is not related to issues of reliability or failures with WB sensors. It is the problems unique to the LM-2 itself and probably the result of Innovate trying to get too much into a product at this price point and for the target audience (e.g. some combination of using less expensive parts than are appropriate for automotive use, lack of internal circuits to protect the device from external electrical issues or mis-connections, offshore manufacturing with too little quality oversight, technical expertise requirements beyond those of typical users, etc.).

ALL wideband O2 sensors used in every device are sensitive to a number of things that will shorten their life or cause them to fail immediately. Klaus published the following on the subject in an attempt to enlighten Innovate users (link: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/foru ... ght=leaded):


:!: How to destroy a WB sensor
This is a list of what not to do with a WB sensor:

1. Leave unpowered while the engine is running
This carbonizes the sensor and destroys it permanently.

2. Power it up while the engine is stopped and then start the car
This can cause condensation water to be blown at the hot sensor elements. The resulting heat shock can crack the sensor ceramics.

3. Lay it in the tailpipe (without an exhaust clamp).
Water can run into the sensor and destroy it as in 2. It can also fall out (see point 6.)

4. Use penetrants on or near the sensor
Chemicals in penetrants like WD-40 cause a chemical reaction in the sensor ceramics that will destroy the sensor. Even vapor is enough. When sprayed on the sensor cable they can work their way through the cable sheath into the sensor as well.

5. Run it in an 'wet' exhaust
A problem in boats where the exhaust is under water and water can be sucked in the pipe. Y off a seperate 'exhaust pipe' of about 3/4" diameter above the water line and mount the sensor in there.

6. Drag it behind the car
Easy to do when not fixed well to the tailpipe
Half a sensor does NOT show half AFR.

7. Use it as a Lollipop
It does not taste good.



Things that shorten a sensor's lifespan:

1. Leaded or otherwise metallized fuels
On leaded race gas the sensor's lifespan is shortened.
According to the Bosch specs on leaded fuels:

.6 grams lead/liter: 20,000 km
.4 grams lead/liter: 30,000 km
.15 grams lead/liter: 60,000 km


2. Running the sensor overheated for extended periods
When the sensor overheats the LM-1 will first show incredibly lean and then error out with an Error 08.
Use a heat-sink on the sensor (look in the old yahoo forum posts for details).


3. Running continuously very rich
This is only a problem on misadjusted engines. In normal operation, even in racing, there are enough periods with lean or stoich operation that the sensor can clean itself. In drag-racing the shortened lifespan is still long enough to typically outlast the engine.

Regards,
Klaus


and this is from the LM-1 manual:

Wide band oxygen sensors – like the one shipped with the LM-1 – are designed to work with unleaded gasoline. Using them with leaded gasoline will significantly reduce the lifespan of the sensor. The reduction is directly proportional to the metal content of the fuel. In most cases, a wide band sensor will provide accurate measurements somewhere between 50 hours and 500 hours with leaded fuel.


He also included instructions in the analyzer manuals of the LC-1, LM-1 and LM-2 on how to power these units from the vehicle so it turns on and off correctly to avoid some of the above, where to mount it, how and how often to re-calibrate it (built-in user initiated diagnostic) and how to connect vehicle inputs for monitoring and logging. Following the Innovate forums for several years has convinced me that way too many purchasers are incapable of reading, understanding or following the electrical diagrams and instructions associated with installing relays, potentiometers (used where needed to "tune" the input used to drive the RPM channel on the LMA-2 and LM-2) and ensuring analog signals the user wants to monitor are withing the bounds defined in the manual. Ideally (and practically speaking it is possible and not expensive), the units themselves would have included all this in the internal circuits so all one need do is connect to appropriate spots on the vehicle - and not be damaged if mis-connected, but they do not. This is not a condemnation of the users as nowhere do the manuals say one needs to be an electrical engineer or experienced electronic technician to correctly connect the units without risking product failure.
The older I get the better I was.
mckee
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Re: Looking for a wideband

Post by mckee »

Bill McCurdy at Williams Racing, Harvard, MA. gets extended life out of the oxygen sensor used on his dyno. He does not leave the sensor in the bung while the engines are being started and warmed up, and only installs it once the engines are fully up to temp. He claims this makes a huge difference in how long the sensor lasts.

Brgds,
Bob D
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agrabau
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Re: Looking for a wideband

Post by agrabau »

We've been using Innovate products for a long time at the shop here with no problems. Leaded fuel cuts down on the life bigtime. Maybe switching to a high octane unleaded and tuning for that could save some operational costs in the long run? If there's moisture in the exhaust and that gets on the sensor the sensor can be damaged, thus the recommended warmup time on the engine.
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sdwarf36
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Re: Looking for a wideband

Post by sdwarf36 »

Bob, Thats what we do at work-warm up with plugs in the bungs-and only put the sensors in when ready to make a pull.
My plan would probably be to warm up with the sensor out--just use things for a couple of passes on Sat till I'm happy with the A/F+ pull everything off. When I hit something out of the norm (cold day at philo-Mt Wash.) do a couple of runs just to check out if any changes need to be made. I'm not looking for the last hp-just making sure everything up to par.
Translating road racing to hillclimbing:
Proper tire selection== nothing hooks up on moss or wet leaves.
Staying on the racing line==anything paved is considered good.
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walterclark
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Re: Looking for a wideband

Post by walterclark »

From the FWIW department...

I have used the same wideband sensor since 2006. It has been permanently installed in the GTI since the start of 2007.

My secrets to its relatively long life:

1) Always have a spare on hand. Nothing seems to ensure a parts long life like having a spare. Or to put it another way, nothing shortens the life of an important part like not having a spare available.

2) Unleaded fuel.

3) Turned on and off as recommended for permanent installations in the Innovate LM-1 manual. I power the LM-1 thru a relay from the battery. The relay is turned on and off by the load reduction relay of the GTI. Essentially the load reduction relay powers off non-critical high current loads while the ignition is ON and in the START position. This ensures the wideband doesnt start warming up until the engine has started and presumably already expelled water and other things that could suddenly shorten the life of the sensor and doesnt shut it off until the engine is shut off.

4) Mounted sensor near engine (in the down pipe) and in the upper half of the tubing. This reduces the time it might be exposed to water droplets on startup and keeps it away from condensed moisture flowing in the exhaust system.

5) Relatively low EGTs. To produce the most power I run my engine at around .87 Lambda (based on the dyno runs at DSG last year) at WOT. My EGT in the header never exceeds 1150F and generally hovers around 1100F when racing. This is about 200 degrees below the optimum operating temp of the Bosch WB at 750C (1382F) and way below the 900C (1652F) max for the sensor. I understand 1600F isnt unheard of in turbo car exhausts.
The older I get the better I was.
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