Break out times

Re: Break out times

Postby HRoundy » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:01 am

Lowering the time means that the car can go faster without getting disqualified. How fast can a car hit a tree without a cage and have the driver walk away? Just because the average time is coming down it does not make it any safer when the car goes of the road. I do not have an answer to my question of even the ability to derive one.

Both my car (only front sway bar change) and Mike's GTR (I believe it's stock) on street tires can easily beat the current values and the proposed values without even trying hard. With a little practice and effort I pretty sure I can get to this 10 second proposal. Mike already has. The current rule does not make it safe and this proposed change does not help. In fact the current rule encourages sandbagging (I know, I did it).

Instead of allowing cars to go faster, we need to find a way to ensure that if they hit a bolder or tree, the driver will survive with minimal injury. How can we determine what speed a car go off without seriously hurting the driver? Is it different if the car has air bags? It different if it has side air bags as well? Does it change if it has a harness? Without honest answers to questions like these, I can't support any reduction of of the break out times.
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Re: Break out times

Postby Rabbit Farmer » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:11 am

Personally, I do not think there is an issue with the breakout times; a lot of thought and calculations went into them to determine the middle of the pack numbers for 5 years worth of events at each venue. Naturally, this number will look different now as we have people shooting for the average (the breakout time).

What we need to do is find a way to get people to follow the intent of the rule. This means no sandbagging. This is a safety rule, which means that if someone does not follow the intent, you need to find another sport. Pretty simple.

One idea we were throwing around, as I mentioned in the forums, is a mid-point time (i.e. CP 4) that would determine if we stop you on the hill without being able to finish. To implement this we would need data first. 2010 season is a good time to get data. We would not have to do all this crap if people would just follow the intent of the rule without the need for the organizers and concerned club members having to babysit with new rules. The sign says no smoking, so don't try to sneak behind the dumpster to have one.

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Re: Break out times

Postby jkale » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:23 pm

One way to prevent sandbagging is to look at a person's times as the weekend progresses to get a good idea of how fast they are going.. If they have one freak run that is more than 10 or 20 or 30 seconds faster than all of the rest of their runs, boot em out...permanently..in that car..Because obviously they are abusing the loophole that has been created by these rules. In my mind this is the only way to regulate the sandbagging(without creating way more work than we should be doing)..

Either that or simply state: No Cage, No Driving. Which sucks because the # of entries will drop and less people will be prone to try the events.

I dont really care either way, but I do hate seeing people who come to the events knowing the rules, and try to get around them however they can while everyone else is abiding by them...
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Re: Break out times

Postby sciroccohp » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:30 pm

http://maxqdata.com/MQGPS.htm
buy a couple of these for people that are suspect of sandbagging or running flat out for 3/4 of the hill then slow for the finish. then buy 15 dumbies and put them on the rest then no one knows who is being monitored and who isn't.
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Re: Break out times

Postby KevinGale » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:05 pm

I'm not going to make a proposal.

The MaxQData unit looks pretty cool but I suspect they are more than we will want to spend.
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Re: Break out times

Postby sachilles » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:05 pm

I have one, love it.
The administrative side of things would be a bit more than we'd really want to deal with. However, I highly recommend getting one. They have a build your own license setup. You can get the software for ~50 bucks. You then have to buy a compatible 10hz unit for another 50 bucks. Software runs on a window mobile platform, so that means you need a smartphone, pda or laptop/netbook. It's very, very cool. You can also sync up video, for an additional $99 software license which I have. It shows video, with g meter, track and speed. I actually have video of Nick, with the info overlay that I need to finish up. The process is kind of hokey and my fisher price computer doesn't have enough horsepower to do it well. Combined with the baby, haven't had a chance to finish. They also have a product if you run a netbook(or laptop), that can sync video of 4 different camera feeds. Overall pretty inexpensive stuff, but expect to tinker, if you go the cheap route.
Example of an autocross I did with the data over lay.


If anyone is interested in running one of these let me know, I'll point you in the right direction for inexpensive hardware and such.
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Re: Break out times

Postby Rabbit Farmer » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:49 pm

Nelson Shepard
nelson@vtcar.com
Technical Rules
4.E. Collision Protection

Proposed Breakout Times
Ascutney.......3:16
Burke...........2:30 ( no change )
Okemo..........2:41
Philo.............1:17
Bolton...........1:32 ( no change )

Original BO times were based on average ETs, and these "averages" have decreased since their inception.
These proposed times are based on ETs of an actual average car.


I have some thoughts on this. If we redid the breakout times every year, we would end up with a time that is lower and lower every year (if we took an average). Why? Only times up to the current breakout time count, therefore, all the times are below this time. So, if we have a lot of people running against the breakout, the breakout time would be 3 days, 3 hours, 34 minutes and 3 seconds in 3100 A.D. ;)

So, taking averages will no longer work.

The proposal above decreases the current breakout times:

2009 Season Break-out times:
Ascutney 3:20 (short course), 4:20 (long course)
Bolton 1:32
Burke 2:30
Okemo 2:43
Philo 1:20


Specifically...

Ascutney 3:20 changed to 3:16
Okemo 2:43 changed to 2:41
Philo 1:20 changed to 1:17


Picking out the most recent events at these venues based on the proposed times.....

Ascutney II, 3:16, Brian Blow (S2 car caged)
Okemo II, 2:41, John Marsha (P2 car caged)
Philo, 1:17.93, Clark Hinchman (S5 caged car)

All of these cars are very capable, drivers are capable, and all are caged.

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Re: Break out times

Postby sciroccohp » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:35 pm

I can't even get to the current break out time at okemo. I top out 4th gear many times a run. that is pretty scary speed and I have a cage, faster then that without a cage would be a problem.
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Re: Break out times

Postby KevinGale » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:41 pm

Rabbit Farmer wrote: If we redid the breakout times every year, we would end up with a time that is lower and lower every year (if we took an average). Why? Only times up to the current breakout time count, therefore, all the times are below this time. So, if we have a lot of people running against the breakout, the breakout time would be 3 days, 3 hours, 34 minutes and 3 seconds in 3100 A.D. ;)

So, taking averages will no longer work.


That would be true if the majority were running against the break out rule and they also were limited by the rule. In reality there are only a very few cars that are both breakout cars and are capable of breaking out by any significant amount. They are not affecting the average that much.

In general I'm just trying to point out that if we don't plan on ever updating the break out times they will get seriously out of sync. Twenty years ago 3:00 would have been a good break out for Okemo but we are now at 2:43. About 90% of the cars are now faster than 3:00.
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Re: Break out times

Postby sciroccohp » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:44 pm

I don't understand what you mean by out of sync, out of sync with what? the tree was just as unmoving 20 years ago and it hurt just as much to hit it. Just because a car is faster shouldn't mean it doesn't need a cage if anything the breakout times should be higher because cars accelarate so much faster now and are so much lighter.
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