Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

General Regulations on how a NEHA hillclimb should function, how the series works, etc.

Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby KevinGale » Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:17 pm

sachilles wrote:My personal opinion on Philo is that the weather plays a large part. It takes a special mentality to camp. Foliage season makes hotels pricey. The narrowness of the hill is intimidating to some. Course is short by the rest of our standards.


I'm sure weather is a factor at Philo.

Burke is not cold, narrow or really short but just like Philo year after year it is marginal financially. And if you take out the motorcycles its entry count problems are worse than Philo. Burke is also talking about raising our costs considerably next year. It's not clear right now what the future holds for the Burke event.

My main point is that Burke should be relevant for points. I really doubt changing the points system will make any difference in the Philo entry count.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby sachilles » Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:35 pm

KevinGale wrote:My main point is that Burke should be relevant for points. I really doubt changing the points system will make any difference in the Philo entry count.


Agreed.

The Burke one really confounds me. Love that hill, campground is great.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby KevinGale » Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:03 pm

sachilles wrote:The question I see with Philo this year, was that the previous events this season were well subscribed. First time in a long time I can remember events hitting the cap, or even being close enough to the cap to be a worry.


True, but you are comparing apples and oranges to some extent. 4 of the events include extra motorcycle entries. Compared to the KSCC events SCCV is automatically giving up some entries. That said the Philo turnout this year was disappointing. I was really expecting another 6-10 cars.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby sdwarf36 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:12 pm

How to get more entries-this is a subject that you can imagine is a popular discussion around our household. My seat of the pants numbers:
There's the 'regulars' -the ones that are going to be at a hill-come hell or hi water. I can count them on 3 hands.
There's the 'usuals"- the folks that make 2-5 races-vairying over the years.-between 15 + 25 per event. Throw in a Dennis family camp out+ you can swing the curve upward. ;) For every time the planets line up + 75% of them show up-it will swing the other way that 25% do.
And the rookies. This year was incredible. And the best part was a fair amount became regulars and look good for next year.
Breakage: is a big wildcard. And Philo being last, you'll get the worst of it. (My 1st missed event for race car breakage in 14 years! :shock: )
So broken down that way- What percentage of entrys were reg/usual/rookie? And how many were out for breakage?
So how do you get more entries?
The only way to get more regulars is by addition. We gained 5 or so last year. Thats a good thing.
The usuals need a pool of at least 35 to be sure enough ones who only show for a couple events overlap. Reminding and shaming this group into showing may or may not work. If you can't miss a wedding-you can't miss a wedding. (Once you become a regular, folks don't expect you anywhere if its a race weekend. 8-) )
The rookies are the only group that can really be improved on.(and the only hope of getting more usuals-and hopefully regulars.) The Facebook thing REALLY helped. Thru the 1st 6 events, we averaged 12 rookies per event. (Kind of a skeward number-rookies at O1 weren't at O2 etc.) But I was taking full pick up loads of newbies on orentation all season long.
Translating road racing to hillclimbing:
Proper tire selection== nothing hooks up on moss or wet leaves.
Staying on the racing line==anything paved is considered good.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby sachilles » Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:17 pm

In the ski industry, studies have shown that where you learn to ski, becomes your home mountain. This is why many mountains offer begginer lessons for dirt cheap. Get you addicted to the sport on the cheap, and hopefully addicted to the sport.
Hillclimb is a step up from autocross and rallycross.
Some thought has to be given to make this idea equitable to each club/event. What if we extended a half price entry to a complete newbie on their first ever Neha event? Give them a taste, and hopefully hook them in.
The downside I see is that, they'll all come out for that first event of the season, it harms that club that is hosting the first event of the season. The key would be to have a neha wide initiative to do it, marketed together, with the burden shared. Or, only do it at the traditionally under subscribed events, as any money coming in is worth it, if it's not preventing a full priced entry from participating.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby JONCOFF » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:13 pm

This is a response to the unasked question "What affects the turnout for Philo?" I really like the hill. The weather is frequently "iffy", but you can't do anything about that, and the date you have available, is the date you have available. The layout of the road is great, and, generally, is intimidating only until you run it. Once you've run it, the way the road narrows is not a problem, because you're still using about half the available width of asphalt anyway (with apologies to the modifieds). I haven't been there frequently lately because I am not a camper, and it is so d..n expensive to get a place to sleep at night. The cost of a bed adds $100 additional to the cost of the weekend above what it costs to stay at Ascutney, Burke, or in the Okemo area if you shop. That is, I've found nothing under $120, or so, per night for any place near Philo, and it's easy to spend $170/night.
Three years ago when I ran, I drove to and from Ticonderoga, lol. This year I drove to and from Westport, across the lake on the ferry. All that stupidity on my part to save $100 on the weekend. Well, I've got to tell you, it makes a difference. And, maybe, it would make a difference to some other entrants if there were someplace nearby where a sweetheart deal could be struck. And, I understand, if the hoteliers have full houses, they have no need to cut a deal. I'm just bringing it up as an explanation, and, while unlikely, it is a possible solution. Those who camp, and those who live in the area might not be aware of how many are kept away by the high cost of overnight accomodations. - Jon Coffin.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby jkale » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:08 am

Steve, if you are comparing E cars to Alcohol cars and saying they are outlawed, how did the Superchicken complete the whole season running straight methanol? There is nothing in the rules regarding it. And I think it is better to educate ourselves rather than outlawing something based on a lack of info.

As for Philo entries, Personally, I think we need to offer more perks to the competitors/workers.. I do not have any good ideas at the moment for what to offer, but as a business, I would be willing to work with the clubs to figure out something we could contribute to help with the numbers...
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby Rabbit Farmer » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:08 pm

And I think it is better to educate ourselves rather than outlawing something based on a lack of info.


I completely agree. I am not pushing to outlaw E cars, just trying to get something going to develop the rules for E cars as we are not currently equipped to handle them.

As for Paul running meth... I don't have an answer for that.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby walterclark » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:48 pm

Just to be clear...Alcohol fuels (Ethanol and Methanol) ARE permitted in our rules. The rules read:

C. Fuel
1. Any normally accepted fuel is legal.
2. Hydrazine and liquid oxygen are specifically banned.

It is true that pure Alcohol fires are harder to fight because the flames are typically not visible. However the same agents work on them (as does water), so its not something that we cannot handle, we are probably just not very well trained to recognize and deal with it. This DOES bring up a couple things that should be on the table. Such as competitors informing event chairs they are running pure alcohol fuel so the organizer can make volunteers aware of the fact and explain how that may affect what they see and do regarding a specific car if involved in an incident.

Electric cars on the other hand have a whole different set of issues to be aware of in a crash and it is quite possible a homebuilt E car would not have automatic safety systems in place that would disconnect lethal amounts of energy from ever reaching a driver or volunteer rescuer in the event of an impact. So I agree that we either need to not allow them for now or come up with a set of rules governing their (and our) safety. Logically, the latter would come from a person or group interested in running such cars, on the assumption that they are 1) motivated and 2) subject matter experts.
Last edited by walterclark on Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby Rabbit Farmer » Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:50 am

walterclark wrote: So I agree that we either need to not allow them for now or come up with a set of rules governing their (and our) safety. Logically, the latter would come from a person or group interested in running such cars, on the assumption that they are 1) motivated and 2) subject matter experts.


Well said.

The PPIHC rules are located HERE starting on page 32.

From the perspective of rules, we can lean on PPIHC as a base to develop our rules.

The next thing (it would not be rule based) is we need to understand how workers should interact with an E car that has had an impact or roll-over.

Then, there are classes rules.
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