Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

General Regulations on how a NEHA hillclimb should function, how the series works, etc.

Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby Rabbit Farmer » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:11 am

Or somewhere in the middle.

How about all electric car entries require the approval of the chairperson prior to entry (or something of this nature)
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby 3rdgendennis » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:00 am

Rabbit Farmer wrote:How about all electric car entries require the approval of the chairperson prior to entry (or something of this nature)

With a time requirement that is early enough to make sure the chairperson has enough time to prepare for an electric car.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby RacingFrog » Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:44 am

My 2 cents on event participation and drops:
- Ascutney: it is too rough after the bridge, will probably not go back again, will not encourage newcomers to try it, run group organization unfriendly for cars with multiple drivers (still didn't get the purpose of having 2 completely uneven groups? why no fam run for B group? ...)
- Okemo: great hill, dates are during a good time of the year
- Burke: campground is tight and not friendly to large trailers or low cars but hill is great, will come back (as long as we can park big trailers somewhere)
- Mt Philo: too late in the season, seems complicated if you have big trailer/unregistered car with no windows! Might try it with the STI this year.

Regarding event drops, the current point system is unfair as long as you allow different people in the same class to drop different events. As mentioned in another thread, using the current formula this year, even if I beat Luke at every single hill I go to, I still finish second behind him.
Should we have a minimum number of entrants in a class to score points? Should you score points if you are just by yourself in a class?
IMHO, if you allow someone to score when he/she is alone in his/her class, then there should not be any drops. More power to the one who can make it to all the hills.
If you allow drops, there should be the same for all participants of the class championship.
If you just go with a minimum number of entries in your class for the hill to be eligible for the championship, that might solve the drop problem. Only 1 or 2 cars => hill not eligible for championship points. Show up when the rest of your class show up for a shot at the championship!

For electric cars, I raced a Prius on Gran Turismo 6 and it was dead boring :D
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby drummingpariah » Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:38 pm

RacingFrog wrote:Should we have a minimum number of entrants in a class to score points? Should you score points if you are just by yourself in a class?
IMHO, if you allow someone to score when he/she is alone in his/her class, then there should not be any drops. More power to the one who can make it to all the hills.
If you allow drops, there should be the same for all participants of the class championship.
If you just go with a minimum number of entries in your class for the hill to be eligible for the championship, that might solve the drop problem. Only 1 or 2 cars => hill not eligible for championship points. Show up when the rest of your class show up for a shot at the championship!


I've been reading the Rally America rules lately, and they don't grant points for cars in a class with fewer than 6 cars. That's excessive for us, but I would also argue that we have more classes than we need. I was completely alone in SP6 for more than half of the season. I would love to simplify classification rules like they have.

Open Class – This very broad class allows for a tremendous amount of technical innovation. As with all performance rally classes, the cars must retain their production based appearance, but under the hood, virtually anything goes, turbo charging and all wheel drive are absolutely essential.

Super Production Class – For modern, high performance all wheel drive vehicles with very limited modifications. Only a small step down in speed from Open Class, but a large step down in competitor cost. The primary difference is the allowance for brake modifications in Super Production enabling modern cars with large brakes to fit smaller brake systems to fit 15” gravel rally wheels and tires.

Open Light Class - A class for normally aspirated all wheel drive cars under 2.65 liters.

Production GT Class - Following the showroom stock foundation of Production Class, GT cars are more powerful and often are turbocharged. These all wheel drive cars are allowed adjusted engine displacements over 2.65 liters.

Production Class - Performance Rally’s version of “Showroom Stock”, this class features primarily small displacement 2WD cars that are virtually unaltered, except for the safety requirements, with respect to manufacturer‘s production specifications.

Group 5 Class - The same rules as national 2 wheel drive. Group 2 Class - A normally aspirated, small displacement, two-wheel drive class that otherwise follows the “anything goes” format of the Open and Group 5 classes, but provides excellent competition opportunities for cost sensitive competitors and manufacturers.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby sdwarf36 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:26 pm

"" I was completely alone in SP6 for more than half of the season.""
You can always legally move up a class-and SP5 was the biggest class this year. I ran P1 for years-my motor was so small-I'd be like a P8.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby RacingFrog » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:26 pm

drummingpariah wrote:I've been reading the Rally America rules lately, and they don't grant points for cars in a class with fewer than 6 cars. That's excessive for us, but I would also argue that we have more classes than we need. I was completely alone in SP6 for more than half of the season. I would love to simplify classification rules like they have.


The problem with the current classification system is that it does not work for modern cars. Modern diesels can be more efficient than gas engines but they would still benefit from a bonus. A 1975 Corvette with 165hp ends up in the exact same class as my Z06 with 400+hp because we have the same displacement and weight.
The classification would really work if you had a real power/weight ration, no matter how you achieve it. Brownie points for safety are good but the rest doesn't really work. I was lucky to end up in a class where I had close competition (and the really competitive guys had moved to FL).
Do I think that the classification system is broken? Yes.
Do I think it works anyway? Yes, because experienced people are good enough to change classes to compete with people that are running similar times. It can just be discouraging/disorienting for newcomers because the system is quite complex and not necessarily really fair.

But if you want more rules, you can always run with the SCCA :D
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby walterclark » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:51 am

I dont agree that P or SP are broken. They assume a car is fully developed within those rules. Nothing prevents one from making a 1975 Corvette the equal of your Z06. Do we have a P or SP class in which every car that comes to an event would be competive however it is currently set up? No. Trying to do that is how the SCCA has ended up with a gazillion classes.

U does have a built-in bias that favors newer cars since newer usually equates to more powerful for a given displacement. I do not see an alternative that is practical. ..Meaning one in which the typical new entrant can determine their correct class or a skilled and impartial volunteer that will attend every event and determine that for them.

Also. Our rules get changed by members submitting proposals at the rules meeting, not by griping about them here. To make change one must develop a proposal in the exact wording to be used, then present it and the argument for change to the membership and then it is voted on.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby RacingFrog » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:00 am

walterclark wrote:I dont agree that P or SP are broken. They assume a car is fully developed within those rules. Nothing prevents one from making a 1975 Corvette the equal of your Z06. Do we have a P or SP class in which every car that comes to an event would be competive however it is currently set up? No. Trying to do that is how the SCCA has ended up with a gazillion classes.

U does have a built-in bias that favors newer cars since newer usually equates to more powerful for a given displacement. I do not see an alternative that is practical. ..Meaning one in which the typical new entrant can determine their correct class or a skilled and impartial volunteer that will attend every event and determine that for them.

Also. Our rules get changed by members submitting proposals at the rules meeting, not by griping about them here. To make change one must develop a proposal in the exact wording to be used, then present it and the argument for change to the membership and then it is voted on.


For the U class, if you take the manufacturer curb weight and power, that should be enough to get a weight/power ration and determine classes based on that. A penalty could be applied to 4WD or just use separate 2WD and 4WD classes.
I do think that the same logic should apply to P and SP classes but that would force people to get dyno numbers for the real power and a set of scales for the real weight. My understanding of the current sheet is that it tries to define some weight/power ratio but displacement is not a real relevant indicator of power anymore.

The original argument was about dropping events which raised the issue of classes with a single driver in them.
I don't feel that I am the right person to propose class or championship changes since I will not be participating in the championship. As long as it works for people who are involved in it, it is really what matters. I am not griping about the rules, I am just trying to provide some feedback on the current classing/championship system from a newcomer perspective. If I am the only rookie feeling this way, just ignore my comments. If this is more of a shared opinion among newcomers, that might become an issue in the longer term if you want to retain some of them as regulars and championship participants.
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby 3rdgendennis » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:05 am

U and SP already have separate classes for the top 2WD and 4WD classes
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Re: Rules for 2015.... Electric cars and events to drop

Postby sachilles » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:17 am

I don't think it's broken, but I think we could re-evaluate the upper end of the points scheme.
Currently it is the below scheme.
SP1 and SP2 are 1.5 and above cc/lb
SP3 and SP4 are 1.061 to 1.5
SP5 is .901 to 1.060
SP6 is .900 and below.

I think the upper potential of sp cars has increased substantially in the last 10 years. As a result it is more inclusive. Sp5 was surprisingly big this year, but has been a bigger class of late. Sp3 and 4 are pretty small. SP6 seems non existent at times(aside from Jesse).
I'm wondering if we raised the point levels by 0.1 if that would make an appreciable difference?

Separately, I wonder if it's worth continuing the AWD separation for SP3 and SP4 only. Since there is an AWD displacement penalty anyway, it more or less accounts for that performance difference. The same can't be said SP1 and SP2, as there is no limit on the upper end.

My last suggestion is a little more radical, put a cap on SP1 and SP2. The value is yet to be determined, but lets say for an example if your factor was above 2.0, you get bumped to FL. Really at that point, you are going for FTD consistently, you are one of the faster cars, and should have the safety devices required in FL.
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