What is a car?

[Mopar 151]

Used to be easy to tell... but the distinctions have been getting blurry, at both ends of the scale. Should we propose a minimum or maximum wheelbase or weight? Minimum wheel diameter? require full suspension?
Personally, I'm OK with dwarf cars, 1st gen Mini's, and D/SR, not so good with "Microd's", 250 Mini-Sprints, or "side-by'sides", aka "golf carts on roids".

On the other end - do we need a "whale rule", about cars/trucks too big for the wrecker to handle?

[Rabbit Farmer]

Unsure if we have an official written rule... there is a (spoken?) rule that if Don can tow/pull it, then it can't go up the hill.

[KevinGale]

I wonder how may forms of racing have a maximum weight rule. At the very least it's not a rule that most tech guys worry about much. I know Don has said for example the limo can't run again because he doesn't feel comfortable towing or extracting it. I don't think we really need a rule for max weight.

Not sure about trying to define what constitutes a car. That sounds like a can of worms. What issues do you have with these micro cars? I'm assuming it is safety since I'm having scary mental images. Maybe we can approach the rule from a safety standpoint.

[Mopar 151]

Well, we've had more than 1 inquiry about shifter karts... And the scariest 1/2 hour I ever spent at a racetrack involved a "Mini-Cup" "car" (Yes, you can hit HARD in an 18 hp car! - ask Uriah - he was in the race that night.)
Plus, I've been watching the boys on "This Old Car" bolt turbo and nitrous kits onto Yamaha Rhino's, in between the ads from the liability lawyers about suing Yamaha for Rhino rollovers. And the vestigal "rollcage" that holds up the roof has f'n hinges where it bolts to the dash.

[walterclark]

Since none of these things would meet our stated definitions and requirements for U or SP, they would have to go to P.

I took a look at the specs for the mini-cup car. The cage/chassis doesnt meet the P cage tubing size requirements. The mini-cup spec 1.125 by .065 and we require 1.25 by .120 minimum.

The "cages" on the ATV's probably dont meet our minimums either - even the custom "race cages" appear to be .095 and around an inch.

Perhaps our definitions of what is a "vehicle" in U and SP could use some refinement though. SP says "based on stock production vehicles" without defining the meaning of vehicle and only thru the requirement for "operational lights, horn, glass, wipers, mirrors, door handles, bumpers, heater and dashboard" would most of these small conveyances automatically be disqualified. U requires "cars" be able to pass a Vermont State Vehicle Safety Inspection which eliminates everything but over-sized cars and large trucks. None of these mini racers or ATVs are approved for on-road use in Vermont.

[KevinGale]

I don't think there is any chance we would let somone run any of the mentioned "vehicles" in U or SP. I have nothing against a tweak to the U and SP wording the prevents this but I don't think it's really worth worrying about.

If they meet all our P class requirements is there still a problem? The rollcage rules alone would rule out most of these vehicles without major changes being made. Then there there are seat, head rest and harness rules and rules about driveline intrusion in the absence of factory floor and firewall.

[Mopar 151]

Well, I was thinking about a minimum wheelbase rule (72"???), and perhaps reinforcement of the "working suspension" requirement currently implied in our rules. Maybe a requirement that the driver's feet be behind the front wheel centerline?
And our rollcage minimums are given "in ergo" (i.e.) - as an example, and intended to be in line with SCCA requirements. given the weight of a mini-cup "car", the tube sixe they use should be OK. And that was the case at WMMP - the cage did not fail, but it was not large enough to protect the driver from a "roof first" hit in the turn 4 wall. Speedway sheared the car to bits on the spot, the driver spent 6 months in a halo.

[walterclark]

It may BE adequate but our rule says:

Roll bar or roll cage must be of adequate construction, i.e.:
Mild steel tubing, minimum diameter and wall thickness of:
1.25” x .120” or 1.38” x .090” under 1500 lbs.
1.38” x .120” or 1.50” x .090” under 2500 lbs.
1.50” x .120” or 1.75” x .090” over 2500 lbs.

"Adequate" is subjective but the above size minimums are not and therefore 1.125 by .065 is not permitted.

[Mopar 151]

Sorry about that - - misread 1.125 as 1.5

[KevinGale]

Seems like the working suspension will be self enforcing since they won't make it to the top. I just don't want them to kill themselves when they leave the road. I don't think I understand enough about how wheelbase affects safety to have an opinion. Drivers feet being behind the front wheel centerline seems like a good idea. I know I want all my body parts to be inside the structure that is going to protect me. Of course I really worry about it since I've seen too many times what a tree does to a car.