S3 cars this season?

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skivittlerjimb
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S3 cars this season?

Post by skivittlerjimb »

Looks to be a pretty "intimate" newly created class this year. Hopefully Alex G.'s and others' effort to attract new entrants will make it a bit more broad a class. Combing last year's entrants I'm sure another WRX vs. Evo battle is brewing, with James Phillips' WRX, Bill V. and now Pierre J.'s Evos, Dave S.' Audi 4KQ, and hopefully my own GVR4 (assuming I finally get a cage in it this year) all in the mix.

I still think it's odd that the Evo 8, 9, and 10 all end up being S3 cars under the current rules and all STi's end up being S1 cars, pretty much solely based on 2.0 vs. 2.5 liter engines in them respectively. In just about every other classification scheme I've seen (autox, NASA, COMSCC, SCCA, etc.) Evos and STis are in the same class. It's not any kind of gripe at all, it's just an observation.

Other than STis and of course Mike Wilson's GT-R, which awd platforms out there would likely end up in S1 or U1? (discounting of course engine swap and highly modified cars like Joey's Suby and Alex's Evo II which are both S1 cars). I guess awd Porsches and other exotics, I can't imagine too many other likely candidates that would show up at a hillclimb.
-Jim B.
'92 GVR4 280/1000
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sachilles
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Re: S3 cars this season?

Post by sachilles »

Just a wild guess on what could be in S1
Audi s4(all of their different incarnations)....I'm really surprised we don't see more B5 generation S4's, as their price has come down.
Audi A4 2.8
VW r32
Audi tt 3.2
BMW 330IX(or is it xi, I can never remember)

I also think you'll start to see more 2.0 wrx's in S3.

Perhaps it is time for another trophy....The AWD cup, best overall (season long) performance to an awd sp vehicle. I bet I could get someone to weld together a trophy. :P
Sachilles
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KevinGale
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Re: S3 cars this season?

Post by KevinGale »

The U and S class structures are overdue for an update. That might fix some of the problems and get rid of the need for separate 2WD classes. The problem is that it's a major task. Just getting info and running numbers on hundreds of cars is enough to make most people think about doing something else.

I've been toying with the idea of setting up a database of car info so I could then tweak the class formulas and in a instant see where all the major car types end up.

The main problem is that I'm not real motivated since I'd be perfectly happy if we had no classes at all. :-)
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sachilles
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Re: S3 cars this season?

Post by sachilles »

I'll probably get lynched for this suggestion.

Lets say John Doe has an evo in S3. He consistently finishes in the the top 3 of s3. His times would also put him in the top 3 of S1.
Perhaps there could be a bumping rule where if John Doe gets 5 event finishes that would place him in the top 3 of S1, then he gets bumped out of S3 for future events with that car. Of course you'd have to address what would happen if s1 only had two cars show up for the day.
Also wonder if you could do a S3 break out time. Go faster than x, get bumped into s1.
Of course this all means more rules, and therefore more administration.

There is nothing stopping someone from bumping themselves up into s1 if they feel they can compete, right?

I also wonder about non caged cars and the break out times. I wonder if it might make sense to put a car subject to the break out rule in a lower class, as the performance potential of the car has been restricted.
Sachilles
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Rabbit Farmer
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Re: S3 cars this season?

Post by Rabbit Farmer »

I don't think a classing structure that looked at one's abilities or performance (they are not always directly related, as one may do poorly at and event, but the folks that the performed better than had even worst days) would work. Interesting idea, but we should deal with the potential of each car, not the ever fluctuating performance of the driver. I know with the SCCV we used to have a very simple classification system for autocrosses that looked at engine size, wheel base, and then did some very simple "you're modified/you aren't" figuring to put a car in a class that it seemed to belong. The NEHA classification is above my head as an overall concept (trying to tie in how one thing can affect another over the broad spectrum of cars), but I do understand each component.

Steve
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Deezle
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Re: S3 cars this season?

Post by Deezle »

KevinGale wrote:The U and S class structures are overdue for an update. That might fix some of the problems and get rid of the need for separate 2WD classes. The problem is that it's a major task. Just getting info and running numbers on hundreds of cars is enough to make most people think about doing something else.

I've been toying with the idea of setting up a database of car info so I could then tweak the class formulas and in a instant see where all the major car types end up.

The main problem is that I'm not real motivated since I'd be perfectly happy if we had no classes at all. :-)
Maybe some interesting number crunching is available already? I'm thinking of autocross class & PAX numbers. At least for stock models, just about every model you can think of is classed there according to times (but not by cc/lb). Putting that info together, you could try tweaking the class definitions and see how close the racing might be. While hillclimbs are quite a bit higher speeds than autocross, I'd be surprised if the relative order of models changed a whole lot.
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KevinGale
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Re: S3 cars this season?

Post by KevinGale »

Deezle wrote:Maybe some interesting number crunching is available already? I'm thinking of autocross class & PAX numbers. ...
I have a huge amount of data related to times and cars since I've got a database going back 14 years or so. And getting more is fairly easy as you point out. The data I'm missing is all the modficiations to each car. So I know it was an STI for example but I don't know what specific modifications it has to calculate its number.

Two cars that are the same make, model, year and engine configuration can still end up in different classes depending on other modifications.
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Dave Burden
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Re: S3 cars this season?

Post by Dave Burden »

Rabbit Farmer wrote: I know with the SCCV we used to have a very simple classification system for autocrosses that looked at engine size, wheel base, and then did some very simple "you're modified/you aren't" figuring to put a car in a class that it seemed to belong.
Steve, did you say "wheel base"? Maybe it's time to bring one of the big cars up and have some fun? :-)

Dave
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Re: S3 cars this season?

Post by Rabbit Farmer »

Your limo was fun at that little VTC course (I recall sitting in the back seat at one point for a $1 run). Stowe is a big larger.
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Re: S3 cars this season?

Post by HRoundy »

Deezle may be on the right path. We want to expand the sport and get more people in off the street. An easy way to do that would be to use the SCCA Solo II rules for our U and SP classes. They are not necessarily easier to understand but are well documented and understood by a large pool of enthusiast. There is a comprehensive class list that includes hundreds of cars. Using the PAX would allow us to combine a large variety of cars into one class.

Will the performance of the cars have the same relationship to each other on a hill as in a nearly flat parking lot? Maybe we can use Kevin's data and modify the times by the PAX to see how equal they are. I sure a little mathematical work with a bell curve will give us a reasonable answer and eliminate the good or bad day an individual may have.

If there is interest, I would be willing to start the analysis.

Now, can I find my Stats book and figure out standard deviation again? Its only been 40 years since I took that course and have never need that knowledge since.
Howard
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