What we do is not safe. Period. No cage will save me or you at a 100 mph to zero hit. We need to accept that, make sure all competitors know that, and move on.
Had my share, and still doing it, even after hospital visits. Still don't believe cages should be required (knowing I am in the minority).
Yup, I choose to do this, just like the rest of the idiots around me. Realized that at Washington this year. Foolishness. What we do is utter foolishness. No cage or big puffy pillow is going to save us from ourselves.
Leave well enough alone and move on, so we don't all wind up hating each other again after arguing for 2 hours at a rules meeting.
-gray haired Dennis.
Okemo 2 caged car crashes
Re: Okemo 2 caged car crashes
What we do is not safe. Period. No cage will save me or you at a 100 mph to zero hit. We need to accept that, make sure all competitors know that, and move on.
Had my share, and still doing it, even after hospital visits. Still don't believe cages should be required (knowing I am in the minority).
Yup, I choose to do this, just like the rest of the idiots around me. Realized that at Washington this year. Foolishness. What we do is utter foolishness. No cage or big puffy pillow is going to save us from ourselves.
Leave well enough alone and move on, so we don't all wind up hating each other again after arguing for 2 hours at a rules meeting.
-gray haired Dennis.
Had my share, and still doing it, even after hospital visits. Still don't believe cages should be required (knowing I am in the minority).
Yup, I choose to do this, just like the rest of the idiots around me. Realized that at Washington this year. Foolishness. What we do is utter foolishness. No cage or big puffy pillow is going to save us from ourselves.
Leave well enough alone and move on, so we don't all wind up hating each other again after arguing for 2 hours at a rules meeting.
-gray haired Dennis.
Re: Okemo 2 caged car crashes
BTW. Davids neon crash was stopped by a factory bar. Cage was useless. Pics, after video, and malformed impact site shows it clearly. Take it for what its worth.
The bark I pulled out of my helmet and face shield joint years ago would have been no different with 1-3/4" Dom .120 wall or 1-1/2" exhaust tubing used as a cage. My impact was also stopped by a factory bar.
As previously admitted, I'm an idiot. The only way to save myself for sure would be to stay away. I know that. I'll be at ascutney next weekend.....
The bark I pulled out of my helmet and face shield joint years ago would have been no different with 1-3/4" Dom .120 wall or 1-1/2" exhaust tubing used as a cage. My impact was also stopped by a factory bar.
As previously admitted, I'm an idiot. The only way to save myself for sure would be to stay away. I know that. I'll be at ascutney next weekend.....
Re: Okemo 2 caged car crashes
I believe you.
Partly at least.
John Marsha
Partly at least.
John Marsha
A man must learn to understand the motives of human beings, their illusions, and their sufferings.
Albert
Albert
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Re: Okemo 2 caged car crashes
The cage did have a role in the impact as it did bend, move, etc., therefore, it absorbed energy.al96dohc wrote:BTW. Davids neon crash was stopped by a factory bar. Cage was useless. Pics, after video, and malformed impact site shows it clearly. Take it for what its worth.
Go Fast VW & Audi parts at FastAddiction.com
Re: Okemo 2 caged car crashes
After I hit the tree at Ascutney, I was pulling bark from my helmet as well. There is a huge difference in our opinions afterwards though.. I am very glad that Mr. Don Taylor made me put 2 extra side impact bars on my tube frame/impreza(whatever you wanna call that death trap..) because those bars are what stopped the car and stopped my body from hitting the tree..al96dohc wrote:
The bark I pulled out of my helmet and face shield joint years ago would have been no different with 1-3/4" Dom .120 wall or 1-1/2" exhaust tubing used as a cage. My impact was also stopped by a factory bar.
-Joey Kale #111
Kale's Custom LLC.
802-448-3790
Kale's Custom LLC.
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Re: Okemo 2 caged car crashes
Some other counties heard from..... I thought we were attempting to work out a reasonable minmum standard for the critical sections of a rollcage, perhaps to add a reccomendation for "better than minimum" construction. At this point, we seem to have a fair amount of consensus.
Then, some folks are trying so hard, to upsell tubing quality for new construction, that they feel it is worth doing all sorts of spin around it - like not acknowledging the minimum spec in any way, but declaring that we will accept it in contravention of our published rules. This approach is apparently important enough to these parties, that they are A) willing to block consensus B) use various social mechanisims, including extraneous "stopper" * arguments, dismassals of fact,, muddying of the waters, personal attacks, and the like. There are several possible reasons I can see for such behavior - most of them do not reflect well on said parties.
*"Stoppers" is my term for a favorite tactic of political conservatives
. If an fact is presented that is unfavorable to their position, rather than respond to that fact, they will throw back a peripherally related accusation or argument thant is supposed to stop the fact in its tracks! This sometimes leads to an impression that the parties are "talking past each other" ![Evil or Very Mad :evil:](./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif)
Then, some folks are trying so hard, to upsell tubing quality for new construction, that they feel it is worth doing all sorts of spin around it - like not acknowledging the minimum spec in any way, but declaring that we will accept it in contravention of our published rules. This approach is apparently important enough to these parties, that they are A) willing to block consensus B) use various social mechanisims, including extraneous "stopper" * arguments, dismassals of fact,, muddying of the waters, personal attacks, and the like. There are several possible reasons I can see for such behavior - most of them do not reflect well on said parties.
*"Stoppers" is my term for a favorite tactic of political conservatives
![Twisted Evil :twisted:](./images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif)
![Evil or Very Mad :evil:](./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif)
Re: Okemo 2 caged car crashes
Mopar 151w2 wrote:Some other counties heard from..... I thought we were attempting to work out a reasonable minimum standard for the critical sections of a rollcage, perhaps to add a recommendation for "better than minimum" construction. At this point, we seem to have a fair amount of consensus.
I do think we have fair amount of consensus. I think we can define something that at a minimum allows existing cages that we would all generally agree are good while at the same time giving a recommendation for something that should be accepted pretty much anywhere.
I'd rather we didn't all hate each other and argue forever at the rules meeting as well. But keep in mind in this case we are shooting for a rule that is more inclusive than what we currently have. So we are not voting anyone out. No one should be threatened by this. The only reasonable argument against this is we would be allowing tubing that isn't the best available but I think that is really necessary for the same reason we allow people to race under a breakout time without a cage. Our series is a very low end grassroots sport. We need to be safe but we have to balance that with making the series accessible or we won't survive. It's a tough balancing act at times.
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Re: Okemo 2 caged car crashes
Not sure if any rule changes are going to be proposed for cages, but I found this interesting thread on another forum:
'This thread was a real eye opener as it pertains to how a Pikes Peak cage is different than your typical W2W cage.
http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/motor- ... build.html
I think it's worth a read - not only is it a build thread but the car being built crashes hard (page 19) - there are pics of what the cage looks like after the crash (page 25) - and a detailed account of why and where the cage failed (page 38).'
'This thread was a real eye opener as it pertains to how a Pikes Peak cage is different than your typical W2W cage.
http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/motor- ... build.html
I think it's worth a read - not only is it a build thread but the car being built crashes hard (page 19) - there are pics of what the cage looks like after the crash (page 25) - and a detailed account of why and where the cage failed (page 38).'
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Re: Okemo 2 caged car crashes
Frog - thank you for posting that - although now I have a headache, and there's 90 minutes I'll never get back. And I really don't like some of those forum posters.
Inital impression - shaky cage at best, not well installed. How thin was it? If you look at the buckles in it, none too thick.... Even a little seam welding woulda helped a LOT. Although that floor appears to be made of beer cans, or a similar material, inadquately welded/glued into the car. The only reason the cage did'nt rip out of it's mounts is that it bent first.... The foot reinforcement plates did not engage enough structure in the car, and there was no tubing at floor level. Not even seat mounts...
Resulting in a seat/belt failure mode that Dick Berggren / Doug Gore / Karl Fredrickson, et. al. (Stock Car Racing, Open Wheel, Speedway Illustrated magazines) have been preaching against since the early 70's.
I don't like several other things about the cage, or, to be honest, the structure of Mitsubishi Evo's, but I have to move on, at least for today. I'm researching updates to our cage rules.....
Inital impression - shaky cage at best, not well installed. How thin was it? If you look at the buckles in it, none too thick.... Even a little seam welding woulda helped a LOT. Although that floor appears to be made of beer cans, or a similar material, inadquately welded/glued into the car. The only reason the cage did'nt rip out of it's mounts is that it bent first.... The foot reinforcement plates did not engage enough structure in the car, and there was no tubing at floor level. Not even seat mounts...
Resulting in a seat/belt failure mode that Dick Berggren / Doug Gore / Karl Fredrickson, et. al. (Stock Car Racing, Open Wheel, Speedway Illustrated magazines) have been preaching against since the early 70's.
I don't like several other things about the cage, or, to be honest, the structure of Mitsubishi Evo's, but I have to move on, at least for today. I'm researching updates to our cage rules.....