Real rules vs sorta-rules

[agrabau]

"Mike why don't you just buy your own mountain and race on your own" Rules meeting quote.

That's friend-talk right Nick? I can say with certainty that the cool kids club is certainly not afraid of letting it be known who is invited and who isn't.

There are plenty more... everyone out there gets different treatment. For such a loving community of friends everyone is pretty bad at showing it. The only effort being made to entice new drivers is to let people start without a cage.

Sherm I'd rather crash a GTR 100 times before most other cars on the hill. With or without a cage. The GTR is a substantially safer car than most others on the hill, even without a cage. I say this and I'm still in favor of all cars having cages.

How about a side impact with a car that folds in half with the driver captive in the race seat and fixed harness?

In the interest of suggesting a fix and not stating the obvious I'd recommend roll cages for everyone and consequences for crashes on bring downs, fam runs etc that are established so some people don't get punished more than others.

[agrabau]

Steve I agree with the sentiment of this but not the historical facts that it suggests.
Many comments are made on some cars being faster than others "out of the box" and how this parlays into the breakout rule. It's not a huge assumption that when some of these models are suggested that they are mated with given NEHA drivers.

I also once suggested that we allow racing on two days of the weekend and some people at the rules meeting spoke out to say that "some of us" can afford to bring two cars as is done in other hillclimb series which meant that they could afford to run a car at the edge and potentially break it without consequence.

Therefore, this isn't completely accurate- certain cars and drivers are considered when writing the rules as they should be.

When we, as a group, sit down to come up with changes to the rules for the next year, we do not take into account individual drivers or specific cars. One rule set should be applied to all drivers/cars. If we feel there are issues with the current rules, we can offer solutions when the rules meeting comes up for the next season and try to come to a consensus.

I would also offer that we, as a small grassroots "organization" (in quotes because we are much more), come up with rules for the safety of all drivers, the best classing that we feel offers equal competition, etc. where many times the language on the paper does not match the true intent of the rule. I believe that if the language does not match the intent, we need to have a gentleman's agreement of how to execute the rule during the season. The goal of the events is to give everyone a chance to drive the hills, and have fun doing it. We are not trying to win sponsorships or larger cash prices (heck, even small cash prizes), we are a group of people trying to have fun hillclimbing. We just need rules to protect the people and organization from all the unknowns that we try to forecast during the rules meetings.

Steve

[Mopar 151w2]

Alex - do yourself a favor and stop digging. On the subject of the GTR, your inner fanboi is showing, and it's not flattering. All moving bodies are subject to the same laws of physics, whether they are a scabby Neon or an F-40.
As far as what has been said or not said at hillclimb rules meetings, and the circumsatnces of who and why - you ought not to try and tell people who were there, ran the meetings, compiled the agendas, etc what happened. does'nt make you look good.

[agrabau]

Mopar-whatever...I'm not digging I'm posting my opinion. And I WAS there. I would write the same about any modern car with engineered crash protection. I could not care less about the R35. All cars do not fair equally in crashes. You are bending facts to fit whatever agenda you have and that statement on physics makes no sense.

I have been to events,rules meetings where I have been interrupted and yelled over by members who have had more beers than intent to make rules. I've also sponsored entire events, volunteered at events and raced at events since 1999. It may not make me "look good" but I just want to be honest. If you want to keep your opinions to yourself in the interest of looking good that's your prerogative. Thank you.

Alex

My suggestions getting back to the topic-

Let Don decide on the rules for safety since he has contributed more in this area than anyone.
Make everyone use cages
Don't bother creating the impression that people don't play favorites and bend rules to suit their own agendas. It's human nature and that's racing.

[Mopar 151w2]

Alex - you're still digging. My "real-world" name is John Reed. I've missed 2 hillclimb rules meetings in the 25+ years they have been held, and have chaired several. How long have I been around this sport? At least 50 years - including seeing a race at the old Norwood Arena. My Dad was a track offical at Claremont Speedway for a couple decades, and I've worked for the old Bryar's oval racing as well. I know who was around when - and you wer'nt, to be blunt about it.

[agrabau]

I know who you are John and I have a massive amount of respect for your experience. If you remember I asked you to come to my shop and talk to 100 people to help promote New England Hillclimb with me. I'm trying to point out that making an argument for breakout times is never going to work and that leaves people making on the spot decisions about what's acceptable and what's not.

You have been "there" much more than me and I know that. The situations I was talking about I was present for. The others, who knows how many there were. I feel that Mike has found a bunch of loopholes and that he's not breaking the rules, only exploiting holes that exist due to the difficulty in allowing things like the breakout rule. That's my opinion. Everyone's got one.

[Rabbit Farmer]

Let's take the positive out of this conversation and apply it to the next meeting.

The organization isn't about who has the bigger.... turbo.... it is about being involved in the events and coming to the meeting to have your voice heard. Someone with one year of experience has the same vote as someone who has been around long enough to actually remember what the King of the Hill trophy looks like.

If there were issues in the past, let's try to be aware of them walking in the door and not repeat any mistakes of the past.

Steve

[STI NICK]

You have been "there" much more than me and I know that. The situations I was talking about I was present for. The others, who knows how many there were. I feel that Mike has found a bunch of loopholes and that he's not breaking the rules, only exploiting holes that exist due to the difficulty in allowing things like the breakout rule. That's my opinion. Everyone's got one.

So far you have crapped on people and contradicted yourself but have said nothing real constructive. We all have disagreements with mike and other people. Sometimes we just agree to disagree. Does not mean we don't like each other. It's called life.

Mike and I have had disagreements, but I would and have sat down at events and had great conversations with mike by a camp fire. I look forward to have more conversations with him in the future. If you would go to events you would know this.

Mike hasn't really found loop holes. Mike is breaking the rules and suffering the consiquences by not being able to run the hills. If he wants to fallow the rules he is always welcome to run. Every racing organization has a way for people to try it out. Ours is a breakout time that allows someone with a street car or unchanged car run up to a certain time. Different cars will have different results as far as how hard it is to get to the breakout time. It's not perfect but it does work when followed as intended.

One of the things you seem to fail to understand is these events are only able to happen when we have insurance and volenteers. The clubs names and people who run these events names are attached to that insurance. The insurance company expects us to do our best to protect the insurance company ourselves and the people who participate in these events. There is no set of rules for any organization that covers everything perfectly. Every set of rules has gray areas that are open to interpretation. Its the organizers job to interpret the rules in those gray areas and be as consistent as possible. This would be where the breakout rule could be read and taken in a couple of different ways, but the intent is only one way. The organizer(sponsoring club/event chair) gets the final word as its their @ss on the line if something happens.

One last question. So how do I explain to the insurance company and The lawyer that mikes family hires when he gets killed on the hill that some guy named Alex said we should let mike run without a cage in his GTR because mike was a good driver. But mike is dead now because he hit a tree at 90mph sideways and snapped his neck because he only had a 3 pt belt and no other safety equipment. Hey but guess what the guy with the crap cage and his car folded in half survived because he had a race seat 5 point harness and a HANS device.

[sdwarf36]

"Mike why don't you just buy your own mountain and race on your own" Rules meeting quote.

I've heard alot of stupid things said at the rules meetings-alcohol induced+ otherwise. Never have I taken what one person says as the word of all the hillclimbing community.