The Breakup (Miata build)

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drummingpariah
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Re: The Breakup (Miata build)

Post by drummingpariah »

walterclark wrote:I use Tunerstudio for programming and MegaLogViewer for log analysis. I also use the Android app ShadowDash MS on my Samsung S4 connected to my MS3 via Bluetooth with a couple custom "dashboards" to show me a couple things while racing.
I was going to ask about ShadowDash next. I have a good lead on an Android head unit that would fit in my center console nicely. With that, I don't think I'd need the dedicated wideband gauge (Megasquirt could just display AFR's directly if I want). The problem is that the only valid mounting point I have for it is way down by the shifter - not exactly conveniently located. The Miata is on MS2 because MS3 wasn't available in plug-and-play configuration.
walterclark wrote:... throttle body is sticking open (I had that happen to me with my current TB...the lube in the bearings was about 20 years old and when the TB got hot sometimes the throttle plate rod would stick). It doesnt take much opening of the TB to have this happen.
That would explain everything, but I did some basic testing (wait until the race condition starts, pull over, and manually manipulate the throttle body). It persists even if I park the car with the race condition, leave it overnight, and start it in the morning. At this point though, swapping to ITB's is the most likely solution (I'm excited about it, and I really like the idea of dual stage injection if I can get it working on MS2).
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walterclark
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Re: The Breakup (Miata build)

Post by walterclark »

In my limited experience the biggest problem with ShadowDash is the tablet itself. First, if you want it wired to the MS it has to support USB Host mode and many dont. Then with either Bluetooth or USB the tablet needs to be fast enough to handle all the background crap that goes on on an Android and appear to run the ShadowDash updates smoothly and quickly. I can tell you that the Samsung Galaxy S4 phone does well and the $100 noname that I got to try with this supports the USB host mode but is so slow that it seems the dashboard freezes for a minute at a time. I hear the Nexus do well.

The nice part of running the datalogger (I speak about the MS3, I have no experience with the MS2) is that it can point to the things that are going off when you experience a problem like you have, which can quickly lead to an ID of the cause and a solution.

So with your ITB's, what is the black box in the picture? Is that the manifold?
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Re: The Breakup (Miata build)

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walterclark wrote:In my limited experience the biggest problem with ShadowDash is the tablet itself. First, if you want it wired to the MS it has to support USB Host mode and many dont. Then with either Bluetooth or USB the tablet needs to be fast enough to handle all the background crap that goes on on an Android and appear to run the ShadowDash updates smoothly and quickly. I can tell you that the Samsung Galaxy S4 phone does well and the $100 noname that I got to try with this supports the USB host mode but is so slow that it seems the dashboard freezes for a minute at a time. I hear the Nexus do well.

The nice part of running the datalogger (I speak about the MS3, I have no experience with the MS2) is that it can point to the things that are going off when you experience a problem like you have, which can quickly lead to an ID of the cause and a solution.
All makes lots of sense, I need to flash my firmware to enable my IAT sensor but of the 14 laptops I own, not one has Windows on it.
walterclark wrote:So with your ITB's, what is the black box in the picture? Is that the manifold?
The black box is the air filter element and second injector rail (I believe those injectors are 175cc/min @43psi, where the primary injectors at 275cc/min @43psi, but I need to verify that). I'm not sure if I'll actually be able to fit that filter, but I'd really like to retain it... it keeps filters inexpensive, controls noise, and has virtually no effect on power generation.
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Re: The Breakup (Miata build)

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Apparently the shipping estimate was a little bit off, and so it begins!

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Re: The Breakup (Miata build)

Post by walterclark »

I assumed the 2 bolt flanges on the TB's in the pic mounted to the intake runners but I can now see the injectors angled toward the other end of the TB's. How do you plan to adapt the old manifold for these TB with no flange?
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Re: The Breakup (Miata build)

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For now, I'll do it the same way the VW and Honda folks do - by taking a chop saw to the intake manifold and using silicon couplers (that's what most motorcycles use from the factory, btw). Once I have rough fitment dialed in (after Okemo II, at the very least) I'll either watercut or plasma cut a flange and weld runners to that flange.

Basically, this is what I'm looking at doing, but as a temporary solution I'm just going to chop the runners from the spare intake manifold.
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Re: The Breakup (Miata build)

Post by dsldubn »

what kind of gains are expected from the itbs? does is change your class?
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Re: The Breakup (Miata build)

Post by drummingpariah »

ITB's
I'm waiting on a quote to get a few flanges watercut, then I'll decide if I want to go that route or plasma cut the basic shapes and machine them clean. The tooling I have available isn't really capable of being able to chop this manifold (soft aluminum gums cutting tools up really easily), so it looks like I'm actually going to go at it with a sawzall, angle grinder with a big wheel, or possibly just a hacksaw.
dsldubn wrote:what kind of gains are expected from the itbs?

If I get it REALLY right (which is asking a lot), I'll get slightly better throttle response. These injectors are quite a bit better (12-hole 300cc/min) than the stock (4-hole 230cc) Miata injectors, but that advantage would be much easier/cheaper to achieve just by replacing these injectors or increasing my fuel pressure. There are four real reasons I'm considering this:
  • They're extremely simple, which eases my idle-tuning process.
  • Dual-stage injection should provide me with more fine-tuned idle control. The primary injectors (300cc/min) come on under heavy load, but the idle injectors (~120cc/min, if I remember correctly) control idle/cruise fuel delivery. Megasquirt2 isn't necessarily the best way to handle this system, and I may not be able to fit the stock airbox (which hold the idle injectors) under the hood so it may be a moot point anyway.
  • By building my own flange/runners, I can choose whatever runner length I want. There's a bunch of math to do, but runner length can be tuned such that the positive-pressure wave generated when an intake valve closes can be timed such that that pressure wave rebounds back against the head just as the intake valves open again. It may be possible for me to beef up the 3750rpm power-hole I have right now. That power lull has a pretty big impact on my corner exit speeds in low-2nd, so it could make a substantial difference for me.
  • They sound really cool.
In short, if you're considering ITB's for logical reasons, stop now. It's extremely difficult to get a meaningful return on investment out of them, and there are much better places to spend your time/money. My idle issues put me in a unique position where I already want to replace the stock plenum anyway, and that's what tipped me far enough to put these parts together.
dsldubn wrote:does is change your class?
I assume installing these means I add the 'non-stock induction' modification, but even with that modifier I'm firmly planted in SP6. Effectively, no. I couldn't find a clear definition of what the 'non-stock induction' rule actually means though, so I may not even be subject to it ('non-stock induction' may mean natural aspiration vs forced induction, or it might mean a different air filter, since that's part of the induction system).

If I had some sensible modifications (anti-roll bars, sticky/wider wheels, etc) and this qualifies as 'non-stock induction' this could be the straw that bumps me up to SP5, but I'm apparently starting off with the non-sensible stuff. If I end up in SP5 next seasons, I think a roll cage and turbocharger/intercooler are going to happen instead of ITB's.

In other news...
I finally isolated the rattle/clunk noise to one of the exhaust heat shields, after I removed the rear anti-roll bar (they're comically small on the Miata). I may replace this exhaust as a winter project, but for now I'll just accept that it's noisy over bumps. My driver's door hardtop seals aren't doing their job any more, so after Okemo II I'll have to replace them. Getting rained on every time I turn left isn't fun.

I removed a little more dead weight while I had the car up on the lift, which meant the dead antenna (that motor is surprisingly heavy):
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and finally cleaning up the nastiness left over from the 'fender vents' that a PO put on.
Image
At some point, I should probably weld up those holes or replace the fenders with something that actually vents ... but that's not even on the to-do list right now. At best, I may spray some paint over the bare metal ... maybe.

I ordered some parts from Flyin' Miata, which should show up on Friday. Unfortunately, I'm heading out directly from work, with a caravan of workers so I think I'm going to have to accept hot air blowing up through my shifter hole all weekend. I was always surprised by how hot my shifter got, and found that my shift boots were pretty much non-existent. Now they're literally non-existent, and I may have to cut some cloth/leather to cover the opening as a temporary solution for Okemo.

Finally, I took some time to REALLY mount the ECU (I had taped it down with some sturdy 3M tape previously, but I didn't trust that 100%). I cut some bolts to length and cleaned up the threads on them, machined the Megasquirt housing a little to accept them, and tacked some nuts to the inside of the fenderwell so I could easily mount and unmount the ECU. I'm finding that Serial->USB cables are very failure-prone, and that's what prevented me from dialing in a decent ignition tune at Burke I. I finally got a new one, but I'm starting to think it's worth investing in a few backups to have on-hand.
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Re: The Breakup (Miata build)

Post by 3rdgendennis »

I'm sure Walter will confirm, but I am under the impression that non-stock induction does in fact mean any variation from stock. Cold air intake, non-stock manifold, non-stock TB, etc.
drummingpariah wrote:In short, if you're considering ITB's for logical reasons, stop now.
I love that way of thinking! Can't wait to hear it with these!
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Re: The Breakup (Miata build)

Post by dsldubn »

cool. I've seen some vws make good power with itbs in the past, so was curious. I'm sure port work and cams help much more...but every itb car I've heard is pure music, love the sound.

I was only curious of class because the other miatas are in SP5. I couldn't even remember if you ran in U or SP class last time I was at the hills
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