Okemo 2 caged car crashes

[Rabbit Farmer]

That's one thing I don't get, why is it allowed to have plates on the floor pan?
Every plate on my cage is on the chassis frame

I think most cars in the series are unibody.... no frames.

[RacingFrog]

I think most cars in the series are unibody.... no frames.

Excuse my limited English, but I thought what was called a unibody is just when the body is integrated to the frame. There is still a structural frame on which you can/should attach the rollcage.
My understanding is that my Corvette C5 is a unibody as well. I am probably using the wrong term when I say that my rollcage is attached to the frame, what is the proper term?
Like that picture below, my floor is just fiberglass and balsa wood, the plates are welded to the 'frame':

[walterclark]

I understood what you meant. "Frame" being any part that is structural whether it is a separate assembly or is integrated into the vehicle.

I agree that the pads on the lower ends of the cage should be attached to something more substantial than a 20-ga floor pan. When people have come to Don and I for advice BEFORE building a cage we usually recommend the bottoms of the main hoop be on pads that are on or at least tied to elements like door sills and structural crossmembers with welded plating similar to the material used for the pads. Same for A pillar and rear braces (sills, strut towers, crossmembers, firewalls, etc.).

I think it is a mistake to legislate specific things like the above in our rules. We would need a full time staff to write and keep up what then amounts to a how-to on cage building that would probably do little more than piss people off and keep reasonably safe cars from competing. We still have not reached consensus on how to write that we dont want cages made from unsuitable tubing. And never mind the fact that these days, even if you purchase what is documented to be the right stuff, the quality of the tubing you actually receive may not meet the standards it claimed to meet. Ask Mike Hurst, technical manager at SFI and Rally America competition director, about this if you catch up with him someday and have lots of time to hear some of what he has seen lately.

[jkale]

Well, Walter, we should use this as a thread as an opportunity to get the cage rule worded so that MOST competitors can agree on the way the rule is worded and enforced. Right now, we are free to use some pretty unsuitable materials for roll cages. That should change.

[RacingFrog]

I think it is a mistake to legislate specific things like the above in our rules. We would need a full time staff to write and keep up what then amounts to a how-to on cage building that would probably do little more than piss people off and keep reasonably safe cars from competing. We still have not reached consensus on how to write that we dont want cages made from unsuitable tubing. And never mind the fact that these days, even if you purchase what is documented to be the right stuff, the quality of the tubing you actually receive may not meet the standards it claimed to meet. Ask Mike Hurst, technical manager at SFI and Rally America competition director, about this if you catch up with him someday and have lots of time to hear some of what he has seen lately.

I wasn't advocating a particular addition to the rule but just trying to identify what could be really a major flaw in a cage design that would not preserve the driver safety. I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel and larger organizations like SCCA, NASA or Rally America already have done the work for us. I understand that there is a need to strike a balance and requiring big bucks cages in cars is going to deter a lot of people from participating. However, I think David got really lucky and things could have been a lot worse. I'd hate to see that story being repeated because we did not agree on better rules.
Maybe there are intermediate solutions for cages that are not really up to the standards, a limit on the class they can run in or tires they use (treadwear > 100), or another breakout time. These are just ideas in the air but I agree with jkale that we should all try to help out making everyone safer.

Regarding the improper material, I am no expert and I don't know if there is a way of verifying a tubing composition, but a simple verification that SCCA requires is a small drilled hole in a non-critical section of the cage to verify wall thickness. That should be pretty easy to implement and an easy way of detecting grossly improper tubing. That would be cumbersome to check that at tech at every event but we could probably have an annual tech like other clubs have to check that once.

Again I am not complaining or trying to add rules, I really love this series, its simplicity and the people who are running it. You guys are doing a great job at tech and I'll be happy to help if you need an extra hand.

[3rdgendennis]

There will always be the what ifs, but my cage did exactly what it needed to. If the hit had been further forward on the car, I don't know if that would be the case. I would be in support of a more specific design rule for cages, especially bolt ins (though I believe our rules already require bolt ins to be welded in). I would not support a rule that limits tread wear, etc. I crashed because I got too comfortable and was pushing harder than I should have in the corners to make up for lack of power in the straights. Less sticky tires would have made that situation worse.

[Rabbit Farmer]

Well, Walter, we should use this as a thread as an opportunity to get the cage rule worded so that MOST competitors can agree on the way the rule is worded and enforced. Right now, we are free to use some pretty unsuitable materials for roll cages. That should change.

Just to clarify... there was a good debate earlier this season regarding what NEHA should have in place regarding cage construction materials wherein we tabled the discussion for "later". Joey is just stating that perhaps these events would re-stimulate that discussion to help us better prepare for the 2014/2015 meeting.

Steve

[walterclark]

The material problem I referred to isnt one that can be measured easily or seen visually. It is a problem with the quality and consistency of imported steel tubing. Incorrect composition and inconsistency seem to be the big problems.

Measuring tube diameter and thickness are easy. Determining the tubing in use is A500 Grade A rather than C or A513 type 1 1008 and not type 5 1020-1026 (DOM) is outside the scope of what we can reasonably do at tech.

[3rdgendennis]

Well, Walter, we should use this as a thread as an opportunity to get the cage rule worded so that MOST competitors can agree on the way the rule is worded and enforced. Right now, we are free to use some pretty unsuitable materials for roll cages. That should change.

Just to clarify... there was a good debate earlier this season regarding what NEHA should have in place regarding cage construction materials wherein we tabled the discussion for "later". Joey is just stating that perhaps these events would re-stimulate that discussion to help us better prepare for the 2014/2015 meeting.

Steve

Agreed

[RacingFrog]

The car didn't rollover completely correct?

There is that famous picture of the Mustang at the track where the main hoop went though the floor and the car was crushed:
I wonder if something similar would have happened with your cage if the impact would have been on the roof.