Rollcage Material Selection re;rule changes

Post Reply
User avatar
Mopar 151
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:03 am

Rollcage Material Selection re;rule changes

Post by Mopar 151 »

I should, perhaps, apologize to those whom I was a little short with at the NEHA meeting - but I have problems with willful ignorance and folks who would prefer to shout down what they don't understand. When the dust settled, we decided to delete all references to steel alloy and titanium in the cage spec, including refrences to material and weldor certification. Also deleted were seperate wall thickness specs for "alloy" or "4130" tubing. We continue to accept cages built to current FIA rally specs.
There are sound technical reasons for these changes. First, our material spec. is "magnetic steel", mostly because it is what we can reliably determine at the hill. We can reliably measure wall thickness, and Tech (Don) will be furnished with a guage to do so, with calibration traceable to NIST. Basically, with rare exception, commercially available tubing meeting the wall thickness & magnetisim spec. will be suitable for rollcage construction, if it is welded correctly.
Submitted for your consideration: Physical properties of steel tubing, as published by Thyssen-Krupp at their Online Metals website.
Image
As you can see, the most common materials - 1026 DOM, 4130, and 1018 erw share common properties. they have yeild strengths over 50,000 psi, tensile strengths over 65000psi, and elongation of less than 25%. A-36 pipe is marginal, but it's most commonly available spec (Schedule 40) is substantially thicker than our minimum - so strength will be roughly = to 1018, but with a weight penalty. 1008 exhaust tubing is generally not available in wall thickness sufficent to meet spec. which is good - 'cuz the stuff is gooey soft, and will bend (%elongation) quite easily. Both of the stainless tubings listed fail the magnet test. And that's good, 'cuz although their tensile strength is quite good, they are very ductile (softer than a sneaker full of s#@*!), and nearly impossible to tell apart in the field.
It is also important to note that "Chrome moly/4130" is not substantially stronger than 1026 DOM, unless it is heat treated to a point where embrittlement is a real possibility, particularly if it is welded after heat treat. And the common practice of torch annealing the welds to prevent embrittlement renders it no stronger than 1026 DOM - thus our discontinuance of a thinner wall spec for 4130.
Last edited by Mopar 151 on Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John and Michelle Reed
KSCC Life Member
NEHA # 151
User avatar
Rabbit Farmer
Posts: 2260
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:37 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Rollcage Material Selection re;rule changes

Post by Rabbit Farmer »

John... thanks for the through update on the changes tothe the cage rule. Question... will done also have a drill at the event to drill a test hole if needed or does this device actually work from the outside (magic or technology)?
Go Fast VW & Audi parts at FastAddiction.com
User avatar
Mopar 151
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:03 am

Re: Rollcage Material Selection re;rule changes

Post by Mopar 151 »

A drill . wilth an 1/8" bit (rivet drill) will be needed - but several folks bring cordless now, so I don't beleive it will be an issue..

Note to Steve: as you can see, I had limited successs bringing in a table from Word - I managed to tweak it into shape, but when I submitted it, it goes back to ka-@%&*-o! can you fix it? I'll e-mail the Word file if it helps.
John and Michelle Reed
KSCC Life Member
NEHA # 151
britracer89
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:14 pm

Re: Rollcage Material Selection re;rule changes

Post by britracer89 »

I would think it is the responsibility of the driver/owner to read the rules and arrive at tech with said measuring hole appropriately sized for said measuring tool. Not sure it was specified but I would think hole location to be passenger side main hoop?
Just my ½ pence
Brian
User avatar
Mopar 151
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:03 am

Re: Rollcage Material Selection re;rule changes

Post by Mopar 151 »

It's better if the hole is drilled in the tech inspector's presence, and placed at his direction. There are ways to cheat with a pre-placed hole, the guage will be more accurate with proper placement of the hole, and Tech is more qualified to select the location of the hole with regard to strength.
John and Michelle Reed
KSCC Life Member
NEHA # 151
User avatar
Rabbit Farmer
Posts: 2260
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:37 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Rollcage Material Selection re;rule changes

Post by Rabbit Farmer »

Mopar 151 wrote:A drill . wilth an 1/8" bit (rivet drill) will be needed - but several folks bring cordless now, so I don't beleive it will be an issue..

Note to Steve: as you can see, I had limited successs bringing in a table from Word - I managed to tweak it into shape, but when I submitted it, it goes back to ka-@%&*-o! can you fix it? I'll e-mail the Word file if it helps.
E-mail the file to me and I will see what I can do.
Go Fast VW & Audi parts at FastAddiction.com
User avatar
Mopar 151
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:03 am

Re: Rollcage Material Selection re;rule changes

Post by Mopar 151 »

Thanks for the help- OP is fixed now.
John and Michelle Reed
KSCC Life Member
NEHA # 151
User avatar
Mopar 151
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:03 am

Re: Rollcage Material Selection re;rule changes

Post by Mopar 151 »

This may be a little "chewey", but it does frame my concerns with the use of 4130 tubing, and the issue of heat-treatment, both pre- and post-weld.
http://www.bmeltd.com/Dragster/tubulartales.htm
John and Michelle Reed
KSCC Life Member
NEHA # 151
User avatar
Mopar 151
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:03 am

moved from another thread

Post by Mopar 151 »

by Mopar 151 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:52 pm

T45 specifications: Chrome/manganese alloy, ~ ASTM B753, aka "Reynolds" tubing

Tensile = 88,200 psi
Yeild = 68,350
% Elong. = 17

Supposed to require less post-weld heat treatment than 4130, but I find no specs for "as welded" or "annealed" strengths - also rumored to be 6x as expensive as "moly"
j. kale posted:
I haven't found a supplier in the US that sells T45.. I've looked around.. The only place I know that stocks it is vtcar..and they import it..

From what I've read, it requires no post weld treatment to relieve stress or maintain strength.. and most of the homologated cages are 1mm wall thickness on the majority of the tubes..thats thinner than what sheared on my subie tube frame thing..-Joey Kale #111
John and Michelle Reed
KSCC Life Member
NEHA # 151
User avatar
Mopar 151
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:03 am

Tubing weight

Post by Mopar 151 »

The reason often given for using alloy tubing is that many sanctions permit it to be used at thinner wall thicknesses than mild steel DOM tubing, thus the car would be lighter.
Weights of DOM tubing sizes

Outside Diameter Wall thickness Inside Diameter Type Weight, lbs/ft. Wgt/80ft.
1.25″ 0.120 1.010″ HREW/DOM 1.448 116
1.375″ 0.120 1.135″ HREW/DOM 1.608 128.6
1.5″ 0.095″ 1.310 HREW/DOM 1.426 114
1.5″ 0.120″ 1.260″ HREW/DOM 1.769 141.5
1.75″ 0.109″ (FIA) 1.532″ DOM 1.910 152.8
1.75″ 0.120″ 1.510″ HREW/DOM 2.089 167.1
Fifth column is weight is #/foot, 6th column is weight of 80' in #

80' is a good number for amount of tubing in a rollcage. if we do a little figgerin' we come up with a weight of 76.6 # for 80' of 1.5 x.065, giving a weight savings of 37.3 # for a "moly" cage vs. 1.5 x .095. IMHO, there are FAR better, safer, and cheaper ways to take 37 # out of a car - particularly ones that start out at 2500# .
John and Michelle Reed
KSCC Life Member
NEHA # 151
Post Reply